They're hearing us now...

Are we terrorized? Perhaps not on the surface. Were we at the time? Yes, of course.

I think that we are getting to a point where the public is desensitized to war and terrorism. Sure, they'll all agree that bombing in [insert place] was awful, but the American people are no longer virginal to terrorist tactics.

How many times since 2001 have we been told that something horrible might happen to us the next day? How many holidays have been approached with anxiety? Most of us don't even respond to that any longer, and not because of defiance.

Beautiful. Perfect.

Wonderful!

Steve, thanks for making me reflect, for bringing a tear to my eye, and even a smile to my face.

Never forget.

Terrorized - NO, Pissed - Definitely!

I have a quote somewhere from WWII that says Americans view war as either sport or business, and there was no way in telling what was worse for the axis. WWII was sport: rallies, songs, following the front lines like box scores.

WWIV is business, sit down, shut up and do the job. This time we're leaving it to the professionals.

I work at an office building directly across the Hudson River from where the WTC was. I'm going to have a hard time going to work today, and I'm sure a lot of my compatriots in the securities industry will as well. The grief hasn't gone away.

Thank you, from the land where drinks don't need ice, for these thought provoking lines!
Quite a few of us ALSO remember and say: "Hang in there - we're right behind you!"

PS: Generally I'm a Macallan or Talisker man, but I'll join you any day as long as it's just stirred! Cheers!
jd

I am a 48-year-old lawyer with a great wife and three great kids, one of them a baby daughter.

On September 12, 2001, I called the local recruiter for the U.S. Army. To try to join.

Why? Because they want to kill me. They want to kill my babies. And I want to stop them.

The recruiter was very nice; "Too old," he said. Meanwhile, my son joined Army ROTC at his college. I joked with him that if it wasn't for the age limits, maybe he and I could have been second lieutenants together in the same company.

9/11 hurts. Not being able to do a damn thing about it except vote hurts.

Hurt, yes. Angry, yes.

Terrorized? If the recuiter had said "yes" and not "no," Osama, I'd be over there looking for your ass right now.

I’m still pissed.
I’m resigned to the fact that it will probably happen again. I have doubts about our ability to intercept and shoot down an airliner.

I’m even more pissed at the people who write in Democratic Underground or Smirkingchimp.com, the people who think that the US did it to ourselves. The typical liberal people who would be first against the wall and stoned under a shira (sp?) America.
I want to scream at them and say “don’t you understand? It does not matter if you are a Liberal American, a Conservative American, a Socialist American or a Larouche supporter. You are an American, and should die”

I’m pissed at the news media that wont show all the video, as it happened. (I’m talking especially to Fox, what happened to we report you decide?)

I’m sad because sometimes in the middle of the night I fear that eventually we are going to have to go nuclear. And sometimes I wish we already did.

And then I wonder am I crazy?

On another note, the first poster on this thread is Chris Muir. Chris is the creator of the best cartoon going today, "Day By Day." And he is a genuinely nice guy.

You can see his work at daybydaycartoon.com. Give him the hits, and give your local paper a call recommending him.

LIke RJGator, i too tried to join up on Sept 12th. Medically unfit, the Recruiter told me - cuz I had just recovered from cancer. But, I try t o do all I can on the homefront, but, it can be difficult here in commie-town I live in. Here isn Ann Arbor, mi, it seems people here are more sympathetic to our enemies - would you believe it?

Thanks, Stephen.

Years from now, I think we'll appreciate our response to 9/11 more than we realize. We nuked the last country that launched a surprise attack on our soil. We could have used 9/11 as a license to slaughter with our full aresenal of weapons. Wouldn't it have been satisfying to whip up a batch of VX and turn Tora Bora a foggy green?

Instead our response was rational, calculated, and humane...even to our own detriment. But we're winning. The terrorists can't hit us and we're more worried about how the Falcons are going to do without Michael Vick than what Osama is planning.

Thanks. Last year I wrote a long essay. This year I decided that I would just put up a simple tribute - a picture and a few links - but I woke up this morning feeling that I want to say something. But I'm not sure what.

We've gotten back to "normal." Day to day, we don't remember how we felt on this day two years ago, or in the days and weeks immediately afterwards. I live a long way from NY but I never felt worse in my life. I took it very personally. An attack on America is an attack on me personally. That's what it felt like - like it was done to me, personally.

Very well said.

Two years later some of the shock is gone. Not the shock at the deaths, but the shock that there are really people out there who thought that dousing three thousand random people with jet fuel and burning, smothering, and crushing them to death was a perfectly acceptable plan to make the world a better place. And who'd happily do it all over if given the chance.

I don't like to think of people hating me or making bad things to happen to me or my loved ones, and part of my mind still tries to slip around that thought every time I remember what happened. But then comes that same realization that, like it or not, this current war something that must be won. Not to be popular with people who never liked us much anyway or to be comfortable with the status-quo, but simply to stop it from happening again to anyone else.

Robodruid.

As I was telling my wife last night. It can never happen again. We are not cattle, willingly riding in the Cattle Truck waiting to be slaughtered.

Should these guys try it again, I would imagine every man and woman on the plane would immediately fight back. For one thing about people, it is better to die Fighting then to die lying down.

Well said, Stephen. Thank you.

NEVER forget.
NEVER forgive.

That was brillant. I've also posted a little bit of my own on my blog but I couldn't write just as well as you did.

Well done, Stephen.

Here's another link for you; it's the E.G. Ross essay The Terrible Swift Sword .

You summed up what I was feeling as I lay in bed last night before I fell asleep. Was I terrorized, hell no. I was fearful for a few hours as we wondered what was happening, trying to sort it out. But I was also pissed, and I am still pissed. I watched Tom Friedman on the discovery channel, and the Arab Muslims tried to explain thier humiliation that fed their anger, thier despair and all I thought was F*** Y**. You have made a huge mistake, our intellectual elites may quake at the sights and sounds of "quagmire" and bombs in Baghdad. Most Americans are thinking when can we finish Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia. How soon can we kick thier sorry buts out of the stone age and into the 21st century. 5 million Jews have "humiliated" you for 50+ years, and now the Varsity is in the game and in for the duration.

Amen.

Like ronin, I live in the People's Republic of Ann Arbor, MI. You see hundreds, if not thousands, of lawn signs reading "Peace" or "No More War." But I think I may be the only person who put an American flag in my front window. And yes, I have it inside the house, otherwise the lefites in town would probably try to tear it down. Sad, isn't it?

Thanks Steve. That was perfect.

JS:

http://datacenter.ap.org/wdc/fbiweapons.pdf

It's a huge file. I don't see how any screener can stop them.

Charter a flight of children to Florida for the weekend. Take a Canadian plane.

You see the situation. But the rest of the world does not.

5 million Jews have "humiliated" you for 50+ years, and now the Varsity is in the game and in for the duration.

I remember reading the list of some of the units going over into Iraq and feeling sorry for Saddam. They've written their name in a thousand battlefields.

1st Marine Division
82nd Airborne
Royal Irish
Scots Greys
The Diggers

The varsity indeed

Terrorized? I was never terrorized. The dominant emotions that day were grief and a white hot anger.

But I refuse to be afraid of those people. Any of us could die any day for any of a dozen different reasons. I fear a woman running late for work (or a guy trying to find that song in his CD changer) on the highway more than I do any terrorist.

I have no fear of flying. They may shoot an airliner down, but they'll never hijack another one. Every flight is Flight 93 now.

That day is one that none of us can or should forget. I think that Michele's Voices site is one of the best remebrance sites I've seen. I had to stop reading it yesterday while at work. There are few people I will cry in front of, and my co-workers aren't in that group.

Anyway, thank you Stephen. As usual, you expressed what I think many of us are thinking and feeling today, and you did it more articulately than most of us could.

In particular, thank you for this:

"Or there's my preferred method, which is to invite them in, sit them on the sofa, offer them a glass of lemonade, and return from the kitchen after having removed my pants."

Gave me a reason to smile today. Not an easy task. :)

Yes, 9/11 changed everything. They (the bad guys) see it as a just war. We (the good guys) see it as a war we HAVE to win. There is no negotiation, no backing down. I'm British and I'm with America on this one because 9/11 has changed things for me too.

We must win this war against freedom and liberty. Good luck to all those who are fighting it. I owe you and your families big time.

Yes, Yes, Yes, Good writing.

I am pissed and angry, at the fools and cowards who kill and main. At the politicians who play, lie and cheat. At the people who think that this is all a game, but most of all I am pissed at the "Religious" leaders that say it's OK to kill & maim in the name of "Faith".

We must defend ourselves and I thank President Bush for what he is doing and has done.

"they hear us in ..."

No, they don't hear you at all. They hear true American heroes, police and firemen and soldiers who put their own lives on the line to kill terrorists and to teach them a lesson.

You, as in "us" are just a blogger. Yes, you have a right to your opinions, and yes you have a right to express them as you see fit, as in sitting at your desk typing into your computer.

But you don't have a right to include yourself in the "us" whom the terrorists hear.

Not unless you're willing to do something real. like joining the US Military.

Not one of the terrorists around the world can hear a blogger.

I am sad at the enormous loss of human life. I think it was a tragedy no matter where you come from, and if it happened anywhere else I would feel just as sad as I am now...

It was great writing, but I defintely do not support Bush and I won't go so far to say we did it to ourselves, but people don't plow airliners into building just for the hell of it...

I think the ultimate insult for these 24-chromosome camel-fluffers - after we've ground them into powder - would be to produce something commercially viable with their ashes. Pork BBQ marinade?

The REAL threat, the real danger - lies not in Tikrit, Tehran and Damascus - but in Ann Arbor, Chapel Hill, Amherst and Berkeley - as many posters have alluded to. What to do with our 5th column?

-MG

Dear Mr. Green:

Thank you for a thoughtful, measured, and intelligent mediation on the tragic events of two years ago.

In particular, I admire how sober your post is on this date -- not too triumphant, melodramatic, or outraged -- perfectly elucidating the personal struggle that you've moved through. As a humble observer, I take strength in reading you describe how you are coming to grips with terrorism and cataclysm, while eschewing nationalistic bombast, pathetic self-victimization, or partisan posturing.

Thank you.

I would like to share this one with you:
http://www.acrosstheatlantic.com/dirge/3.html

jd

Paul A'Barge,

I guess Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams (to throw out a few names) didn't contribute to the revolutionary war. They weren't willing to do something real - like join the US military.

Give me a break. The US can't have 300 million people sign up to fight militant Islam. Who the hell is going to support that military force? While I served and others do so now, just because someone isn't wearing a uniform doesn't mean we can't conceptualize that there are many ways to fight the enemy. Besides, you may not realize it but this is actually a war of ideas and cultures. If Stephen and others contribute to strengthening our culture, then they are making an active contribution to the fight.

Skipper says, "I won't go so far to say we did it to ourselves, but people don't plow airliners into building just for the hell of it...."

Yeah, it's all our fault. Here's a suggestion as to how you can help expiate our collective guilt: Get your sniveling, whining, self-absorbed, self-guilty, sorry fat ass over to Iraq and join the fight against western civilization.

Nice of you to bring the President into your inane post. We wouldn't have guessed that you don't support someone who is actually on our side.

Close to perfect Stephen, thanks.

A'Barge: Perhaps. And Mr. Paine was just a pamphleteer, Jefferson just a scribbler. Expressed ideas cause ripples discernable to all but the shortsighted.

Gilligan: discuss and support (some other time) the basis of your right to live here.

The irony of Paul A'Barge's comment is that he'd probably be one of the first to argue that this is a war that cannot simply be won on the battlefields.

Even more ironically, he'd be right.

But he's wrong when he therefore believes that "they" do not know or care what is written in blogs.

The reality is that every film we make, is part of this war. Every television series. Every essay in a magazine, every op-ed in a newspaper.

It is the expression of ideas, the market place of ideas, something that the fundamentalists do not understand, except to know that it raises questions about Allah and faith.

It is the interchange and debate, where one raises questions about what is right and wrong, where moral touchstones and religious shibboleths are called into question, something which the fundamentalists are profoundly unhappy about, because, again, it raises questions.

When a Salam Pax, or an Iranian blogger, or a Saudi or Pakistani madrassas student goes on-line, they are exchanging ideas, and while they may influence us, we, too, may well influence them. All of them? Of course not. But some of them. And to the mullahs and the Overseers of Virtue, with their pathological fear and aversion to losing even ONE soul from their view of Islam, that is simply unacceptable.

So, sorry, Paul. The battlefields on which we fight are not merely ones of guns and shells, although we must win there as well. They are battlefields of minds and hearts, with the right to question, to think, to dissent, to believe as the ultimate price.

We are not simply fighting AGAINST something. This is what we are fighting FOR.

What the Islamofacists fail to understand is that they have by no means seen the full might and fury of the USA. They will see it if we ever really are terrorized.

Shocked of course.

When the second plane could be seen heading for the towers there was no doubt that I (we) was at war.

For my mate the war started at the same time. We watched the morning shows together some days. That was a day we will never forget.

Fascism's days are numbered.

I like defiant better than terrorized. Way better.

For twenty-plus years, a crowd of nihilistic death-worshippers have been attempting to draw the United States into a war of annihilation, because the self-centered, narcissistic twits are so lacking in self-awareness that they cannot comprehend their inherently futile nature. It remains an open question whether the U.S. will agree to such an engagement, and proceed to slaughter people in numbers never before witnessed. All that has happened in the past two years has largely been out of a desire by the people of the United States to avoid such a course of action, but it seems that many, here and abroad, still fail to see the precipice that the world is perched on.

Ultimately, the people of the Islamic world will have to choose: do they wish to tolerate the death-lovers in their midst, and thus subject themselves to 21st century technology channeled for the purpose of mass slaughter, or do they choose to drive the death-lovers out of their society, and thus live and prosper? What happens in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other nearby places in the next few years will answer the question. There seems to be many, many people who still don't comprehend the stakes, and that doesn't bode well for the future.

My first reaction when it was finally realised that this was a terrorist act was, "so, it's started." I remember talking to a good friend of mine immediately after the first WTC bombing in 1993. We were mighty angry that the US was treating this as a criminal act (remember, the bombers wanted to bring both towers down - that would probably have killed a quarter of a million people). We concluded that it would probably take the deaths of fifty or sixty thousand people to really get us to act. We knew, back then, that there was a large segment of the World that wanted me and my friend dead, for no other reason than that we didn't bow to their God. "Why won't we act?" we asked. "Why can't we pre-empt them?" Because we don't do that sort of thing. Well thank God now we do.

My ex-Marine housemate (whose son had just mustered out of Force Recon, and promptly re-enlisted) said to me on the morning of 9/11: "how many Muslims are there in the Middle East?" "Couple of hundred million," sez I. "Would you miss 'em?" he says. At that point I was thinking, hell no, vaporise them. We haven't done that yet, and with luck we won't have to. But the people who are against us should remember this: they cannot defeat us by force of arms, whereas we can suddenly and without warning turn every square inch of their cockroach nations into crematoria. There was a curious exhilaration I felt among the horror and rage. "Finally," I said to myself, "finally we can take these bastards on!" I felt vindicated. There is no sweeter feeling than saying, "I told you so!" But this was mixed with an awful anger that we had been reactive, not proactive. I loathe Clinton for many reasons, but this is chief: that he charged the FBI with the response to the first WTC attack, rather than the Marine Corps.

Am I still angry? Oh God yes. I am red-mist, quivering, tears-in-my-eyes furious. If anything I'im angrier now than I was then. Then I was shocked, unable to fully absorb the ramifications of this. Now, I see clearly the nature of my enemy, where before he was only dimly glimpsed. To say I hate Muslim fanatics would be weak tea indeed. I loathe them, I execrate them, I despise them with a vicious passion. These people murdered more of my countrymen in one act than the disgusting IRA did in any one bombing over 30 years of terror. If I had been back in the UK at the time, living in the area where I spent most of the 90's, I would probably have beaten someone to death. It was an area with a high density of Asian immigrants, and if I had seen any display of celebration (which friends told me was far from uncommon) I think I would have snapped. When I read reports of the foul al-Muhajiroun organisation planning a commemoration of the 'Glorious 19,' I want to know why my country can't round these people up and shoot them in a cellar of the SIS building.

Let me make this clear: I don't hate Muslims. But fundamentalist Islamofascists? I want them to die, shrieking, withered by fire, caterwauling as their faces melt off their skulls. I want them ground into dogmeat, spattered in dripping chunks over the battlefield. I want them hunted down, without let or favour, and extirpated so utterly that generations to come will not even mark their graves. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to put the muzzle of my gun against the head of one of these fiends and spray his grey matter over the wall.

This is a war for civilisation, a war against howling barbarism. If we lose this war, then we won't have deserved to win.

Another fine, worthy effort! Outstanding. Also, don't forget the Mormons. I still have memories of dad using your boxer short method (with beer in hand) on the elders coming by to help him see the error of his wayward ways.

Angry and defiant? Yes. Pissed? Sure. Terrorized? No - you're right: no.

But I do have sorrow.

WE are in a struggle with which we can opnly dimly begin to perceive the shadows of. I believe even Osama bin Laden is only a lieutenant of those who plot against us. The 20th century has seen "Total war' taken to its (almost) extreme: whole cities destroyed, non-combatants killed, exterminated, bombed on a scale and with such efficiency as has never been seen before.
Our new "Enemy" has no wish to confront us in our strength, but will struggle against what we call "Western Civilization" with their squads of suicide bombers, terrorists, etc. to horrify us personally and force a "political" capitulation (we'll vote to give up). This war will grind on for years, political blame will be passed out and apportioned, we will grow weary.
To quote Tom Paine, 'Now is not the time for the Sunshine Patriot'. The job for all of us not on the line in Afganistan, Iraq and elsewhere, is to stay informed, pay attention and compel our political leaders to pay attention and win this war, though it could last a generation.
Freedom is never free. Its cost is sweat, tears and devotion to an idea, and that devotion will surely call for the blood of patriots to water the Treee of Liberty from time to time.
Freedom and Liberty have not and are not the 'natural state' of human beings, though they may be 'inalienable rights', but those rights have to be payed for when the natural state of human tyranny arises.

In America, we have the life we have because so many picked up the thread of civilization and defended it from those who would shred it, beginning in the time of unrecorded history right through to your post today.

Thanks to them, and to you.

My reply to Paul A'Barge: two years ago to this day I wished I were 30 years younger - then I'd be talking to a recruiter that very morning! But I had already served in (and retired from) the Army, and long enough to recognize that the weapons in this war consist not only of bombs, bullets, and tanks, but also of ideas and ways of life. In this arena everyone has a chance to contribute, whether they're in the military or not.

"Find the enemy, and shoot him down. Anything else is nonsense."

(Captain Manfred von Richthofen -- "The Red Baron")

Onward, Ladies & Gentlemen.

This is a wonderful post, but in the many references to the tragedy of 9/11, please include at least mention of the Pentagon and Pennsylvania as well.

Beautiful Job Sir -

I am a former Marine who served in the Mid-East during the 70's - there are alot of genuinely good human beings over there. Unfortunately, there are alot of people who we will have to fight to the death there as well.

This will not be an easy task, but it must be done and our country is made up primarily by people who will do it on the front lines and by those who cannot fight but will support the fight in the rear.

We could not have won WWII without the people who stayed home and made the weapons that we used to win that one - same deal here. All can contribute.

Semper Fi America..

I haven't "dived head first into the bloodiest part of the heart of darkness," but I think I've taken a glimpse, and against all reason and the belief that innocents should not pay for the sins of the criminal, and with no motivation other than sheer bloodthirsty revenge. I think 10 megatons over Mecca would be a beautiful thing. To hell with a humane response, with the damage to "world opinion" and the rest.

Just one point of disagreement with this fine essay: I do understand, I think as well as possible for a middle-aged guy in Ohio who doesn’t have a security clearance, why our enemies hate us. They’re not shy about expressing themselves, and I see no reason not to take them at their word.

However, "understand" is not synonymous with "accept," "forgive," or "validate." The more I understand our enemies, the more eagerly I anticipate the day when the last terror master is strangled with the entrails of the last Wahabbi imam.

Delinda est Carthago. Let’s roll.

Something happened to me on 9/11, and in the hours, days, and months afterward.

Those who were murdered that day didn’t have it coming, nor were they symbolic of oppression half a world away. They were people, who like most others we all know, were just trying to make a go of it.

I am more of a realist today, and one who has zero tolerance for individuals and groups, who will, if allowed the opportunity, work to end my life and those of my family, friends and countrymen, as well as our way of life.

The prospect of walking in fear, as I did in the hours and days after 9/11, and as do others in many parts of the world today, is a bleak one, in my opinion.

Our nation maintains the resources necessary to effectively communicate our
express determination not to live in fear of terror on our own soil. Those who finance terror, and their appeasers, have now had the level of our commitment clearly demonstrated.

Bush's opponents were wrong on Iraq, and are now engaged in an ongoing effort
to discredit our actions there, presumably in order to save face.

In my judgment, the only available opportunity for face saving is an admission of error.

In view of the threat posed to non-combatants worldwide by international terrorists and their sponsors, one of whom is Saddam Hussein, it is clear that some tangible benefit has been realized by his removal from power.

The costs of our charge will be paid one way or another, either now or later.

If our policies in the remainder of the decade following Saddam’s expulsion from Kuwait lead us to the events of 9/11, the logic of returning to the same path afterward provides little comfort or reason for hope.

For all of the innuendo regarding George Bush's supposed lack of a robust intellect,
he apparently is able to grasp concepts that evade our self-acknowledged
intellectual elite.

From Lileks today.

He's talking about Skipper (above) and Paul A'Barge (also above):

Of course some people are impatient with those who still recall the shock of 9/11; the same people were crowding the message boards of internet sites on the afternoon of the attacks, eager to blame everyone but the hijackers. They hate this nation. In their hearts, they hate humanity. They would rather cheer the perfect devils than come to the aid of a compromised angel. They can talk for hours about how wrong it was to kill babies, busboys, businessmen, receptionists, janitors, fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers - and then they lean towards you, eyes wide, and they say the fatal word:

But.

And then you realize that the eulogy is just a preface. All that concern for the dead is nothing more than the knuckle-cracking of an organist who’s going to play an E minor chord until we all agree we had it coming to us.

That's some fine writing, Steve. Not afraid of no terrorists and never have been. As GW says, - "bring 'em on". I am sick of the whining whoosey boys and girls (and since I'm from "Beantown", I certainly see my share of them.

Jim R.

While watching the coverage that day, I finally heard some news weenie comment on 'striking terror into the heartland', I believe was the phrase. I found myself yelling at the screen, "Screw terror! What about the pissed-off struck in our hearts?"

I still get ticked when some idiot news reader lectures us about feeling terror, and letting go of our anger. My anger is hard and real, and made worse by the fact that I can't do much about it personally. So I try to support those who can go and kill the bastards, and try to see that, if someone pops up in a restaurant or store with the cry 'You will die for the glory of God!', I'll be able to do something to stop that. May not be much, but you do what you can.

I honestly worry sometimes about my own salvation, when I become aware of the dark flame of anger and hatred that has been kindled in my soul as a result of the 9/11 atrocity, and its purpose.

And then I smile, knowing that those arrogant, ignorant, evil bastards who would destroy our freedom have no earthly idea what that dark flame is really capable of.

Forget? Not a chance.
Forgive? Never.

I just got back from downtown. I met with the families of the four friends I lost, again, and we all paid our respects to the three thousand neighbors we lost two years ago.

Oh, there were some raving moonbats going on about "the quest for peace" and how "fighting doesn't solve anything", but I'm heartened to find that the rest of us, those who are not pathetic, sniveling pieces of crap dishonoring those who were killed, still want justice.

We're winning this war, and not by killing one terrorists, or a hundred. We're winning by killing them ALL by destroying the culture of hate that breeds them, and like many others, I won't let my scars heal until we achieve absolute victory.

Vodkapundit, thank you for a fine piece. I, too, feel angry, not terrorized. But I also feel frustrated. Like RJGator, I wanted to enlist in the armed services, but I was and am several years too old (and I'd flunk don't ask, don't tell besides.)

I want to fight the Islamofascists, but I don't know what practical things I can do. I'm tired at wasting my time just sniping at the local "idiotarians" who think we all deserve to be killed or enslaved by the Islamofascists.

I'd love suggestions of practical things we civilians can do in this war.

- H

You know what really pisses me off?

Its been 2 years since 9/11 and we have a major political party in this country which insists on pretending that it never happened.

Note to H:

One thing that we can do is to send
notes of support, and whatever else
the Pentagon allows, to the troops
out in the field.

Stan

A dillusional man once said, "people will choose the stronger horse".

As Cramer would say, 'Giddy-up' America.

RJGatoresq wrote:

9/11 hurts. Not being able to do a damn thing about it except vote hurts.

If you haven't gone out and got your concealed weapon permit, do. Join the unorganized militia. Be prepared. Start a neighborhood watch. Visit your local mosque, if you have one. Ask them what you can do to help. Give blood. Get CPR and first aid training. Stay vigilant, especially when you're driving by airports. May have to shoot some terrorists with a anti-aircraft missile. Spread the message to family, friends, neighbors and co-workers.

robodruid wrote:
I’m sad because sometimes in the middle of the night I fear that eventually we are going to have to go nuclear. And sometimes I wish we already did.

What DemocraticUnderground and SmirkingChimp, his wife Hillary, 8 of 9 Democrat Presidential candidates and all the anti-Americans disguised as antiwar protestors don't understand, is that if Bush's strategy of de-terrorization of the Middle East by democratization fails, it means we will have to go nuclear and kill tens or hundreds of millions of Muslims.

This then can still turn into a total us or them war, with them being all killed. Yeah, 40% of Americans, who are too sensitive and uninformed will feel really, really bad about this, but that'll be it. You'll have these types float paper boats with candles, like to do at Hiroshima.

Who'll miss the Arabs? What have they contributed to the world in the past 500 years? I pray that this will not be necessary. But the possibility that it will be is very real.

Terrorized? No.
Saddened? Yes.
Pissed. You bet !

And I still cannot believe that that people are choosing to forget. That a political party wants to pretend that it never happened. That few choose to believe this country is truly at war. That our borders are still porous. That we are not willing to round up all the illegals, send them home, and lock down the borders. That I could admit to bordering on hate and not. Note: I will NEVER understand. Cultural diversity, indeed !!!!!!!

We had better sacrifice now to retain our freedom and be victorious less we want to allow them to make us another third world country with them as our leaders.

Thank you for your fine and eloquent words - and for allowing me a small whinge !

"What [Lennin] was talking about was the cautionary lament that terrorism has no other purpose because it produces no other result. Violence terrorizes. It drives people to further violence and desperation, and forces governments to strengthen security. The security apparatus of the state often furthers oppression, thus escalating terrorism, and it becomes a vicious circle that ruins countless lives for years to come."

And he was right, and you are falling for it.

Suckers.

Angry, still? Yes, but the tears I shed today are more out of angry frustration than anything else. America should call out for the creation of at least another 2-5 DIVISIONS of soldiers. Everyone should be given the opportunity to sacrifice and serve, in someway.

Secret fantasy: We perfect cloning human beings, and clone Theodore Roosevelt 25, 000 times. Our biggest problem immediately afterward would be manufacturing enough small arms ammunition.

There is hubris. . .

In making your enemy the victim.

In making your victim your enemy.

In making your country one deserving of some karmic retribution.

In demonizing your enemy in any war.

In demanding blind support for the policies and acts of your government.

In giving it.

In self-righteously demanding that your country has never done wrong.

In self-righteously demanding that your country has never done right.

In disrespecting your country’s victims or enemies.

See also this.

This was exactly how I felt up until last week. I simply could not "get used to" the hatred--and I, like VodkaPundit, have had to "get used to" other pretty crushing blows (2 children with major disabilities, just so you know.) Most people meeting me for the first time seem to view my situation with horror (friendly horror, which is fine), but just as VodkaPundit says, when it's **your** disaster, you get used to it.

And yet I can't get used to 9/11. Not even close. Hand me two autistic kids—fine. Two years after the diagnosis I’ll be starting to live a happy life again. But take down the Trade Centers, crash planes into fields in PA and the Pentagon in Washington, and two years later the whole catastrophe is still brand new. I can’t absorb it; I can’t get used to it; I can’t make it part of life.

Why?

I've thought, **exactly** as VodkaPundit says (and thank you, Stephen Green), that I simply could not "wrap my brain around" the hate. I could not “get it.” Get it, and get used to it.

But then last week I stumbled across an op-ed by Richard Miniter, published in the Wall Street Journal just days after 9/11/01. Here is the last paragraph:

The scale of last week's devastation requires a sober look at America's enemies, starting with Iraq. If Iraq is behind the Sept. 11 attacks and the terrorist assaults of the past decade, then Americans will know that they were not the victims of senseless hate, but malevolent calculation. And President Bush will know that winning the war against terrorism will require him to win the war his father began.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/rminiter/?id=95001199
http://www.richardminiter.com/articles.htm
(Miniter is author of LOSING BIN LADEN HOW BILL CLINTON'S FAILURES UNLEASHED GLOBAL TERROR)

That paragraph was a revelation. What I haven’t been able to get-used-to is the idea of the Trade Centers coming down purely as an effect of hate. “They” hate us **that much**? How much hate **is** that? What does it look like? What does it feel like? What **is** it, even?

And how does “hate” lead to something so massive and unthinkable? Hate didn’t give us the Holocaust; we had to have Hitler for that. We’ve still got Nazis; they never went away. We’ve still got hate.

What we don’t have is a Holocaust.

And as for the Middle East “hating” America—well, everyone hates America. The French hate us; they’re not flying planes into our buildings. (And vice versa, for more than a few of us.) Arabs tell survey-takers they hate America, and then, in the same breath, say they think American democracy would be a great system for their own countries (and they’d really like a visa to come get their university degree here, too, by the way). Is that the kind of hate that flies planes into buildings? Really?

And the real crazies, the Bin Ladens, are nothing like those pissed-off Muslims on the surveys. The radicals have no use for American democracy, American visas, or American anything else. **That** I get, or at least I’m “used to it.” The idea of a lunatic fringe—we all have that concept.

What we don’t have is the concept of a lunatic **mass,** and that is what I’ve been so futilely trying to absorb. A whole, vast, lunatic world; an entire, ancient culture built on pure, seething, crazed and crazy hate.

Reading Miniter, I had a paradigm shift. For me, the events of 9/11 do become something I can “get used to” when I take out the “senseless hate” filter and put in the “malevolent calculation” filter. Vicious dictators kill as many people as possible, as brutally as possible. That’s their job. I get it. As much as anyone can get it.

Now I think I was trying to understand something that wasn’t understandable simply because it wasn’t true. 9/11 wasn’t, at its core, a clash of civilizations. 9/11 was plain old war. It wasn’t a new thing under the sun.

Muslim masses may have danced and exulted when they heard, but they didn’t fly the planes. And now I’m thinking: well, they wouldn’t have flown the planes, even if they’d been asked. Because, truth be told (I hope), they wouldn’t have wanted to kill all those people.

I have no idea whether I’m right or wrong about the Muslim world and its hate (though as to Iraq’s involvement, I’m persuaded by Mylroie and Miniter), and I don’t mean to “normalize” 9/11 wrongly, or to diminish or disrespect anyone’s feelings. But if you’re struggling with the same incomprehension I’ve been fighting, try reading all of Miniter’s essay now.

Like me, you may suddenly feel 9/11 could finally join the category of catastrophes you get used to.

The worst day of my life was November 22, 1963 . . until 9/11. The first date shaped my life, made me a lifetime public servant and liberal. Fast forward 38 years. My two sons are in the car with me, on our way to school, I said "remember this day, it will shape your lives". Today, my liberal views are still strong, but I am so completely frustrated with so-called liberals now bashing our president (whether I voted for him or not, he's still our president) and failing to comprehend the enemy we now face. I protested Veitnam and dodged the draft. I would gladly go fight in this war. Anyone who really understands what happened in the 60's will tell you now, 9/11 does NOT call for peace demonstrations, it calls for war rallies, for patriotism, for flag waving and for solidarity behind our elected officials. Stand together all political stripes; they want to take our liberty from us! They will not succeed!

Why do right-wing morons insist that liberals hate this country? That 9/11 is Clinton's fault when the criminal fraud Bush ignored specific warnings? I've never read this site before, but now I'm starting to understand how two thirds of the counrty can be fooled into thinking that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. And liberals do not hate this country; we love it dearly and we hate to see a lying criminal fascist president exploit a horrendous tragedy for his own politcal gain.

Also, the hijackers and their whacko brethren are not victims, they are war criminals. It is one of the usual dishonest tactics of the right wing to try and claim that liberals sympathize with the terrorists and hate America. Get our troops the hell out of Iraq and find Osama been hidin'

Larry, Are you thinking correctly? I'm liberal and this is pretty simple stuff. The entire Arab culature is whatt "did" 9/11. Not just a few radical Islamists. Are you in favor of women's rights? Well then, how does that square with the Arab cultural view. Do you believe innocents should die for a political point? How about the student protests in Iran, like the governments response to that? Give me a break. (I'll bet you conservatives love watching a couple of liberals have at it!)

David,

True conservatives don't take solace nor comfort in "watching a couple of liberals have at it", rather we sigh relief at seeing one, such as yourself who does get it.

Islam fascism is an implacable enemy which must be destroyed. And, equally as important, it's more than time for the adherents of this religion who claim it is "peace loving" to start sounding a clarion call to renounce the nutcases who seethe with misguided hatred at our country and oust them from their religion, if it is truly a religion and one of "peace". I'm deafened by the sounds of silence from the islamic world, disgusted by the open glee at such horrific events and remain completely skeptical at the claim of "peace loving" from the islamic world.

David, your view is TOO simple. I'm a liberal and I understand that the world is a very complicated place and generally black & white like Dubya wants everyone to believe. I refuse to believe that all of muslim culture is to blame for 9/11. Dissent is patriotic and we have a duty to bash the president (and run his fraudulent incompetant ass out of office) for lying to get us into an unnecessary war in Iraq and ruining our economy.

I believe that the people who planned and financed 9/11 should be pursued to the ends of the earth. But that does not mean that we should invade countries that had nothing to do with the attacks. Anybody who has studied middle eastern politics knows that Saddam and Osama hate each other. To Bin Laden, Hussein is an infidel because he ran a secular regime (brutal antyrannical, but secular - women were allowed to drive cars there).

Bottom line - Bush lied and people died. And they're still dying. Bring our troops home now! And instead of spending our money - which we can't afford - over in Iraq, How about spending it at home for some good here?

A few typos in my last post so...

David, your view is TOO simple. I'm a liberal and I understand that the world is a very complicated place and generally not black & white like Dubya wants everyone to believe. I refuse to believe that all of muslim culture is to blame for 9/11. Dissent is patriotic and we have a duty to bash the president (and run his fraudulent incompetant ass out of office) for lying to get us into an unnecessary war in Iraq and ruining our economy.

I believe that the people who planned and financed 9/11 should be pursued to the ends of the earth. But that does not mean that we should invade countries that had nothing to do with the attacks. Anybody who has studied middle eastern politics knows that Saddam and Osama hate each other. To Bin Laden, Hussein is an infidel because he ran a secular regime (brutal and tyrannical, but secular - women were allowed to drive cars there).

Bottom line - Bush lied and people died. And they're still dying. Bring our troops home now! And instead of spending our money - which we can't afford - over in Iraq, How about spending it at home for some good here?

I received my commission into the United States Army after two years of ROTC in college. About 6 months prior to applying for my commission, I met my future wife. Totally smitten, I opted for a reserve commission instead of going on active duty. I thought it would be much better coming home to my wife every night than being out in the field 300 days of the year.

Not once did I regret that decision. Up until 9/11 that is. Now I wonder how many of my old friends from ROTC and Armor Officer Basic Course (Cav Track) are in the Middle East

I see news clips of soldiers in Iraq and wish I was there. Sometimes I think I missed my true calling in life.

Terrorized? No way. I'm mad as hell because I'm not in Iraq or Afghanistan issuing payback.

robodruid: I have doubts about our ability to intercept and shoot down an airliner.

Having some knowledge of the quality and professionalism of our military pilots, I have no doubts about our ability to intercept and shoot down an airliner. The will to do it is another story, however. God help the pilot that ever has to make that choice to follow such an order.

Larry,

"Bush lied and people died."

Hey, that rhymes! Extra milk and cookies for you! Now leave it to the adults to deal with the real world.

Nothing but love,
Greg

As a noteworthy aside, Paul Hill killed two people - the abortion doctor, and his escort, 74 year old Lt. Colonel James Barrett.

I was going to mention him on Sept 11 amongst American heroes worth remembering, but events overtook me, so I posted this on Sept. 3:

A Genuine American Hero

Lt. Colonel James Barrett has been in the news today.

People Magazine had a profile of James Barrett after his death. If I recall correctly, his family members suspected he was pro-life, all though he was not expressive on that subject. He worked as an abortion clinic escort to help others protect their rights, and was not concerned about his personal safety, because he did not think a protestor would harm a 74 year old veteran.

He served in WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam.

Stan I thought your idea of sending a note to the Pentagon was excellent, so I did. Thanks for the suggestion.

"Dread is for the weak; defiance is, perhaps, the American virtue."

That's the best of the best.

Thank you.

Larry...did you miss that whole thing about the airliner fuselage we found 20 miles north of Baghdad? The terrorist camps? The fact that uber-terrorist and hijacking mastermind Abu fricking Nidal was hiding out in Iraq?

Did you miss the WMD? Saddam's funding of terror abroad? His invasion of Kuwait? The slaughter of thousands after the first Gulf War? The gassing of the Kurds? The torture chambers? Child prisons? Government endorsed gang rape?

You and other liberals can't see the evidence because you're blinded by your hatred of Bush. The rest of us see it perfectly clearly. Get with the program...or get ready to enjoy another 4 years on the political sidelines.

"Bottom line - Bush lied and people died. And they're still dying."

Thankfully most of the people doing the dying are bad guys in Afgani and Iraq. Because our boys are hard targets, a lot of innocent Afgani's and Iraqi's and aid workers are dying at the hands of the Bath-Islamothugs.

Larry many of us in fact do believe on the basis of numerous pieces of circumstanial evidence that Saddam did in fact have ties with OBL & AQ. It's not that there is no evidence as you and your ilk so blithely assert. I suggest you do a little homework because you will find that the thesis that OBL & SH would have nothing to do with one another is very questionable indeed.

As for 9/11, I am another who would love to be on the frontline but I am too old. Today I see the reporters questions or comments that we don't know who is winning the war at this point. I have to scream ARE YOU IDIOTS! We are!

Do you think I am terrorized?
Bring Em On!
And God Protect and Keep our soldiers and innocents.

I am thoroughly disgusted by the digraceful attitudes I see posted in this forum. I feel it necessary to delineate a few things for your benefit.

(1) When people bandy about the phrase "Never Again", they don't mean "Let's not let anyone attack the good ol' U.S. of A. ever again". What they REALLY mean is, "War is the most horrible thing that can happen to a country; we will never again visit war upon anyone." Watch Saving Private Ryan and maybe you'll understand. Read The Wars by Timothy Findlay and maybe you'll understand. Watch people jumping 100 stories to their deaths and maybe you'll understand.

(2) What happened in New York in 2001 had already happened or was happening in dozens of places all over the world; look at the regimes of Hitler, Lenin, Pol Pot, Pinochet, Mao Tse Tung, or even Idi Amin. Look at Yugoslavia, Chile, Bosnia, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Vietnam, Bangladesh, East Timor, and Cambodia. North America had lived in its little protective bubble for long enough; it was time for a wake up call. It's a horrific view of American culture that this tragedy did NOTHING to curb your blatant self-rightousness. BE THANKFUL for what you have, and what you do not.

(3) There are paid and well trained military professionals looking for Osama Bin Laden right now, if the Bush government is to be believed; leave the fighting to them. If you've got some extra energy, volunteer for Habitat for Humanity, local homeless shelters, and food banks. Killing Bin Laden in a wasteful act of revenge isn't going to make the world a better place; helping the less fortunate is.

(4) Let's, in all honesty, NEVER FORGET who it was that trained Bin Laden and put Saddam Hussein in power in the first place. It's odd how you often reap what you sow.

North America is not the schoolyard bully: rather, it is the older, wiser, more fortunate child who understands and empathises with the difficulties of others. We don't start the fights, we resolve them, sometimes at the risk of taking an angry fist in the eye or the mouth. The way some of us are acting now is petty and shameful, throwing tantrums over who shoved whom first.

We are the role models, and it behooves us to stand strong and proud, shouldering that awesome responsibility.

Whowever the first moron who said "dissent is patriotic" is should be hit over the head with a large cluebat&trade.

Dissent is expressing your first amendment right to free speech, guarenteed by the constitution and the blood of men and women who defend it. Dissent is not, in and of itself, a patriotic act. Go ahead and express dissent if you like, but don't pat yourself on the back for doing so.

BTW, nice 9/11 post.

to the Paul A'Barge-like nitwits...

The people on Flight 93 who fought back weren't in uniform.

Neither were the people who subdued the shoe bomber.

Neither were those poor people in Bali, nor those at-prayer Shi'ites in Najaf, nor the families in that Jerusalem pizzeria, except that THEY didn't get the chance to fight back.

Is any of this sinking in, you root-cause nitwit? To the Islamakazes we're ALL targets, which makes us all combatants. Or at least we'd better be.

So say on, Stephen.

And then I saw 'Deron'...

"Never Again" means "We'll never line up meekly for the Cattle Cars" again. The Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Slavs, and others destined for the ovens didn't seek out war, but war sought out them.

"It happened in Cambodia, so it's ok that it happend in NYC." -- that's the sum total of your root-cause lnitwit logic?

Offing the bin Ladens and other purveyors of messianic terror will measurably improve the world's living standards. Kids will fly kites in Kabul. Palestinian teenaged boys will dream of scoring with REAL virgins on Earth as opposed to imaginary ones in Heaven. Iraqis will use wood-chippers to chip wood. Baha'is will swing in Tehran discos, instead of from Tehran gallows.

Saddam put himself in power, we created the Shah. Iran and Iraq are NOT the same country. And bin Laden was trained by the Saudis and Pakis, not by us.

Man, Deron, but you are easy prey. Seriously, stay out of the deep end of the pool.

furious

Furious, thanks for the last couple of posts. You are the wind beneath my wings.

To Quote above:
Terrorized? No.
Saddened? Yes.
Pissed. You bet !

I'll also agree with Jabba that there is something for those of who can't join the military to do. Look up your local CERT teams, join your local ambulance corps, learn emergency communications - do something

I notice you cleverly named yourself 'furious' rather than 'intelligent' -- which is just as well, as you apparently got angry at my post rather than grasping the meaning behind it.

I don't condone the 9/11 terrorist attacks; the terrorists and dictators are NOT trying to make the world a better place, they are instead lashing out angrily like spoiled children: this country has more money than mine, I must attack. This country has different beliefs than mine, I must attack. This country does not suffer like mine does, I must attack.

Obviously bad things happening in Cambodia does not justify the same bad things happening elsewhere; but too often North Americans turn the news on, listen to the reports of ethnic cleansing, and promptly forget about it. 9/11 should be above everything a reminder that there are similar and greater atrocities happening all over the world.

The stance the U.S. has frequently taken because of these events has been to grab their shotguns and pile in the back of the pick-up, 'cuz boy-howdy, we're gonna have us a lynchin'! And I personally find this sort of attitude to be intolerable when there is a wealth of pain in this world already, easily recognized if you would take the time to look beyond your own borders.

I grant you that the U.S./Bin Laden/Hussein links are somewhat, but not entirely debatable, so I will let those lie.

"I personally find this sort of attitude to be intolerable when there is a wealth of pain in this world already, easily recognized if you would take the time to look beyond your own borders."

I personally find it offensive when someone says we can't do something just because we can't do everything: The Doctrine of Paralysis.

Why do you think Libya recently caved? They knew what was coming. Why? Because we did something. We started. We weren't just going to bomb an aspririn factory in Sudan.

Paralysis doesn't work. Action does.

STEPHEN: Great article. I applaud you.

Deron, no one misunderstood you. And, playing with semantics makes you look like an petty idiot when not directly related to the topic of conversation.

You place to much value on what you have to say. It's a train of thought everyone has thoroughly evaluated. It's forced on us everyday.

For your "leave it to them" argument: that is just antisocial. If you have the desire, time, and enegy to learn a skill which can benefit/protect your fellow man and keep you active and vibrant and diversify your POV, you should. Especially if it can be of value in everyday life.

Know your audience. Don't try to champion your sociallist causes on struggling achievers. You paint with too broad a brush, too close to the canvas; step back, see the big picture. You sound like the guy who short changes his struggling, studious waiter or bartender and then gives a dollar to the schizo on the corner. Understand the causes you promote or devote yourself to.

Don't argue that we shouldn't fight for our interests in, and to liberate, Iraq because we didn't in this or that place. It is irrelevant. To give perspective, some people believe this war is a burden on our budget (not true) and that it has spread our forces to thin. We cannot take up every cause, we cannot make our decisions based on who is suffering the most. We need to put our efforts where we and they (other party) will benefit most. We are in Iraq because of the burden the Sunni placed on the world, the region, and the Iraqis and because of its potential to be a productive, shining-example member of the global community. The only things Iraq is missing are freedom, ownership, and work ethic.

There is a hand. I'm staying out of the deep-end. I suggest you do the same.

What this guy... David Gillies

But they must all be circumcised first.

Note to Deron: when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

Not only are you a moralizing nitwit, but an arms-length mindreading clairvoyant moralizing nitwit, too.

Nice that you don't "condone" what the Islamakazes did -- a civilized person would not have had to point that out explicitly.

9/11 is a reminder that if the Islamakazes could have killed 300,000 instead of 3,000, they would have. And that it happened to us. If thereafter we can't protect our own countrymen, we won't bloody likely be able to protect unfortunates on the other side of the world, either.

Yes, yes, those evil Nortenyos. They turn on the news to watch their sons stepping between the PLO, the Phalangists, and the Israelis in Lebanon, only to see them blown up for their trouble. They turn on the news to see their sons STILL in Bosnia and Kosovo protecting after dispatching the Serbs who attempted to claim both for 'Greater Serbia'. They turn on the news and see their sons in Somalia protecting aid shipments from gunmen who would later try to annihilate them.

And so on...save the lecture for when the French step in to save the Anglophone Tutsis from their client Francophone Hutus, or when the Euros step in to stop genocide in their own backyard without American help.

You've watched way too man "Dukes of Hazzard" re-runs, dude. The only pickup trucks in Iraq were those with which the Islamakazes tried to ram our Abrams tanks...unsuccessfully, I might add. And if you have evidence of Americans lynching the locals in Afghanistan or Iraq, please...share them with the class. We'll wait .

Violence only begets more violence. The terrorists attacked us. Why? We don't know, but they performed a disgusting, violent act. So our response back is more violence, in Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm not saying we didn't need to expel the Taliban. It was necessary, but I don't think it has solved the problem. We are still at war, and people are dying at the hands of violence. I know all of you will disagree with me, because I'm one of those liberal pacifists. And I don't think our society is at the point where we can take revenge without using violence.

And you may say we are winning this war, but when will it end? When every terrorist is dead? When will we feel we have our vengeance? When we attack every Arab nation? How can you "beat" terrorism? It just seems like too shadowy of an enemy. Perhaps the best thing to do is increase our security at home and prevent these types of attacks.

And also, try to figure out why the heck we were attacked in the first place. I know that seems wimpy, but I think we should try to look the hatred in the eye and figure out the root of the problem.

Violence only begets more violence. The fascists attacked us. Why? We don't know, but they performed a disgusting, violent act. So our response back is more violence, in Japan and Germany. I'm not saying we didn't need to chase away the Imperial Navy. It was necessary, but I don't think it has solved the problem. We are still at war, and people are dying at the hands of violence. I know all of you will disagree with me, because I'm one of those isolationists. And I don't think our society is at the point where we can take revenge without using violence.

And you may say we are winning this war, but when will it end? When every Nazi is dead? When will we feel we have our vengeance? When we attack every European nation? How can you "beat" fascism? It just seems like too shadowy of an enemy. Perhaps the best thing to do is increase our defenses at home and prevent these types of attacks.

And also, try to figure out why the heck we were attacked in the first place. I know that seems wimpy, but I think we should try to look the hatred in the eye and figure out the root of the problem.

Lisa,

If we stopped the pursuit of the terrorist, our homeland security would have to be increased 10,000 fold.

We would have to place guards, police, or the military at every restraurant, every bar, every theater, every stadium, every mall, in every store in that mall, every park, every monument, every office building, every gas station, in every school, on every campus, in every airport, on every bus, on every train, on every boat, and everywhere a group of people gather?

How many would we place at each location? To stop an attack, these people would need to be armed with GUNS. Even this would not stop them from attempting to attack and there are no gurantees that we would stop all attacks!

I hope you now see how preposterous your idea is. We needed to take the fight to them, not to a Mcdonald's in your neighborhood.

When was the last time you persuaded someone that did not like you to like you? Did it matter that you knew why they disliked you? Did you change yourself so they would like you?

I would not say you are wimpy, just unworldly and a bit naive.

First Deron, and now poor, addled Lisa...

Actually, violence judiciously applied can actually END violence. If a rabid dog is threatening my child, killing that radid dog with a well-aimed shotgun will END the threat to my child, as the rabid dog will be dead, and thus unable to attack my child, or anyone else's children ever again. And I won't have had to try to understand why the dog was rabid, or why it wanted to attack my child, or light a candle with it, or be a human shield for it, or validate its pain.

Manfully-applied violence on the part of many nations begot two of the most pacifist nations on earth -- Germany and Japan.

I'm sitting here drinking a beer, reading all the posts on 9/11, thinking I should be feeling dread, fear, sadness and helplessness. Not me, instead I am filled with such a sense of exultation. Strange perhaps, hmm? Not really. (I can't relate too much on how I feel about 9/11's aftermath and politics due to my profession, as I serve in the US Air Force) Instead I am strengthened by all the posters wanting to remember and fight back in their own way. That is exactly what I'd hoped would grow out of such a dire event. It feels good to see the hope, pride, strength, patriotism, & determination in my countrymen.
I have never felt more a part of the "mainstream America" I left behind when I enlisted, than today. The military is a strange choice for many, especially for a female, and I'd been feeling a tad ostracized. I now feel supported, and that some people truly understand why I do what I do. I'd never encountered that particular sentiment before 9/11. Thanks.
I've lived in several countries, and I KNOW that ours is the best. ever. period. I want to help protect it and the people that live in it. Although I may have a different ideology than some on the far left or far right, I want to keep all of you safe. Truly. Thankfully the military let me choose a job that would allow me do that, even as a female! (Try that in other countries!)
So, someone wanted to help fight back and couldn't enlist. You all can fight back, even if you aren't in the armed forces. You can do that by not showing any dread, fear, sadness and helplessness. Here's how I think you can do that, in no particular order. 1) Help stem the tide of any -ism. 2) Donate blood. 3) Learn about other cultures. 4) Volunteer at VA hospitals. 5) Join the Peace Corps. 6) Help out at your local animal shelter. 7)Feed the homeless. 8) Yes, even blog. There is so much more you can do. In these ways we can only encourage good, and strengthen our country. Basically, I just want you to show others everywhere what good there is to be had in America. I know it's here, now show them. End of rant...
Sashinka

Furious,

Have you ever dared to look outside of your precious little box and see what actually goes on around the world?

It seems to me that you have much hatred and you feel as though the only way to solve a problem is with violence and weapons.

It's interesting to note that you defend the actions of the american military and governement because you feel it is necessary to defend your territory and your homeland. If only countries of the world that had power and influence used that power to help those around the world that suffer from these atrocities daily. If you were really concerned with the elimination of terrorism perhaps you would have acted BEFORE you were personally attacked.

It does make one think about the late entry of the US into WWII and how they were not concerned about the wellbeing of others until they became threatened.

How can you possibly present yourself as well educated and well informed when you are not even willing to entertain the possibility that the US might have made some errors in their reaciton to the events of 9/11?

Obviously METY's education did not include a course in persuasive rhetoric...

I have no reply to METY's snippy, snobbish, unfocused rant other than to ask him to contemplate quietly sometime the old saying, "Perfect is the enemy of Good."

(Meanwhile I will ponder where and in what he could possibly have gotten that education. Jeez.)

As for Furious, yeah, he's dramatic, but I found his closing statement unobjectionable, factual, and rather pithy. Preach on, Brother.

METY

How can you possibly present yourself as well educated when don't even present a well rounded view of the entire situation. You failed to mention the TENS BILLIONS of dollars the US gives other countries each year in economic, medical and emergency aid! NO OTHER COUNTRY GIVES AS MUCH AS THE USA!

I do not recall anyone on this thread saying the USA was perfect. We freely admit we are not and we have and do make mistakes but we KNOW that we live in the BEST COUNTRY on this planet! Call us arrogant if you like but that does not mean it is untrue. I may not have as much education as others but at least I know enough to know that I do not know everything. Thinking you know everything truly would arrogant.

Rhetoric is the last bastion of the confused and metally feeble; what better way to move the course of discussion than through empty words and misdirection? You did not respond to a single one of METY's comments, and your personal attacks do little to elevate you to one of the cognoscenti.

Anyone with even the most basic knowledge of political science or sociology knows that we can't draw any kind of parallels between Germany and Japan and the middle east -- I won't justify *that* with a comment. And while I agree with furious insofar as the shooting of the rabid dog is effective, it's also the method that requires the least amount of effort, something indicitive of the attitudes of the people posting in this thread.

"More educated" -- yet another armchair arms-length psychologist engaging in their own brand of quackery.

And when they have no argument, they trot out credentials and try to compare travel visas.

As for "not reacting to prior terrorist acts", you'd have to address that item to former President Clinton, and his former cabinet members, under whose watch hundreds of Americans and thousands of Saudis, Africans, and other nationals were murdered by terrorists, with no action on the then-Administration's part but feckless, pointless missile strikes against Aspirn factories, empty ministry buildings, and empty desert camps.

And, sorry, it's the Euros responsibility to sort out their own filthy little wars first, before dragging us into them. And as they have repeatedly proved themselves miserable failures in defense and foreign policy during the last century (20th), they really REALLY have no business lecturing Americans on how to conduct theirs.

Here are quotes from Osama that go some way to explaining why it happened.
Has this not been released in the US? In Britain we read all this long ago!
Before anyone jumps down my throat, I DO NOT support Osama and his kind in any way! And Im NOT trying to say the US had it coming. I was as horrified and heartbroken by the events of Sept 11th as any other right minded person.
1000s of innocent people died on that day 2 years ago but they were not the 1st and they won't be the last.
It isnt just about 'hating Americans' and that is what most of you have to think about. The victims were innocent but I don't believe that your government is.

"I discovered that it was not enough to fight in Afghanistan, but that we had to fight on all fronts against communist or Western oppression. The urgent thing was communism, but the next target was America... "

""The ordinary man knows that [Saudi Arabia] is the largest oil producer in the world, yet at the same time he is suffering from taxes and bad services. Now the people understand the speeches of the ulemas in the mosques--that our country has become an American colony. They act decisively with every action to kick the Americans out of Saudi Arabia. What happened in Riyadh and [Dhahran] when 24 Americans were killed in two bombings is clear evidence of the huge anger of Saudi people against America. The Saudis now know their real enemy is America." [From The Washington Post 8/23/98]

"The presence of the USA Crusader military forces on land, sea and air of the states of the Islamic Gulf is the greatest danger threatening the largest oil reserve in the world. "

"The evidence overwhelmingly shows America and Israel killing the weaker men, women and children in the Muslim world and elsewhere. A few examples of this are seen in the recent Qana massacre in Lebanon, and the death of more than 600,000 Iraqi children because of the shortage of food and medicine which resulted from the boycotts and sanctions against the Muslim Iraqi people, also their withholding of arms from the Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina leaving them prey to the Christian Serbians who massacred and raped in a manner not seen in contemporary history. Not to forget the dropping of the H-bombs on cities with their entire populations of children, elderly, and women, on purpose, and in a premeditated manner as was the case with Hiroshima and Nagasaki."[From The Washington Post 8/23/98]

"We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation."

Ahh... The fresh openmindedness of University of Greenwich:

Students

Nurturing excellence
Students benefit from being taught in a research environment where staff share expertise and specialist facilities. We set high standards for teaching quality and provide professional training opportunities for all our lecturers.

Extensive student support services include our new Disability and Dyslexia Centre which works with over 700 students. Many of our black and other ethnic minority students participate in our pioneering mentoring scheme which pairs them with highfliers in the City and elsewhere

Ahh, Deron pops up out of his dumpster and lobs another feeble volley...no comparison betw. Ba'athist Middle East and WWII Germany/Japan? Pshaw...

The Ba'athist parties of Syria and Iraq were modelled on the Fascist parties of WWII-era Germany and Italy. Arab intellectuals studying in France during the late 30's and early 40's became enamored of the Fascist model as an organizing principle for Arab nationalism then chafing under the yoke of colonial France (Syria, Lebanon) and Britain (Iraq, Transjordan, Palestine). Nazi Germany found these Arab expatriates useful as proxies inciting against the Free French and British presence in the Middle East, drawing resources away from the battlefields of No. Africa. The Mufti of Jerusalem even sojourned in Berlin as a guest of the Fuehrer after the British expelled him from Palestine for incitement against the Mandate and Jewish settlers.

I hope you're taking notes, Deron, because I don't like repeating myself.

I see you actually did register for first-year poli sci after all, most likely on my recommendations. It's heartwarming to see that, even though you're in the gutter, you're reaching for the stars.

I see you've also managed to find the syllabus, and even plagiarized a few paragraphs of the class description. Congratulations! I see a shining academic career in your future.

Wendy,

You are correct when you state: It isn’t just about 'hating Americans' and that is what most of you have to think about. The victims were innocent but I don't believe that your government is.

Why do you excuse yourself, Britain and Europe from the wrath of Osama and company? In the next statement you quote he states:

“we had to fight on all fronts against communist or Western oppression. The urgent thing was communism, but the next target was America... "

His stated goal is the destruction of the western world. Last I check Britain and Europe was part of the Western world. He tells his followers they are predestined to install their version of Islam all over the world, and that Allah sanctions removal of all obstacles to this, by any means whatsoever. Europe has a large Islam/Muslim immigrant population. I know not all these immigrants are involved with Osama but I am sure they are not all pure and innocent. If they were, your government would not be taking the steps that it is to protect its citizens.

We do not deny the USA is the #1 target and his anger is mainly targeted at the USA. It seems, you ignore that his is also coming after the UK and Europe. His anger is at the entire western world but he would not get as much play in the media if he railed exclusively against Britain. Part of his reason for this is, he is using the Anti-American mind-set in Europe to aid in getting attention for his cause.

His stated goal is the destruction of the entire western world! The Islamic revolution.

As you told us, This is what most of you have to think about.

And I do think about it! Sadly, I haven't come up with any answers yet. If I do, I'll let the World know.

I don't excuse "Britain and Europe from the wrath of Osama and company" and I AM fully aware that he is "coming after the UK and Europe". Presumably, thats why our troops are fighting and dying alongside the American ones. There just seemed to be an awful lot of people asking why the terrorist attacks happened but not wanting to hear the answers.

FAO Aaron: Thank you for your email! While we clearly disagree, debate is always a good thing.
I'd just like to point out that I don't recall expressing an "absurd view of Americans" in my original posting. And narrow-minded? No. I was brought up to look at all sides, however unpalatable they may be.
Though, for narrow-minded views, see the following:
"Most Americans are thinking when can we finish Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia"

"Get your sniveling, whining, self-absorbed, self-guilty, sorry fat ass over to Iraq and join the fight against western civilization"

"Who'll miss the Arabs? What have they contributed to the world in the past 500 years"

"If I had been back in the UK at the time, living in the area where I spent most of the 90's, I would probably have beaten someone to death. It was an area with a high density of Asian immigrants..."

"I do not recall anyone on this thread saying the USA was perfect. We freely admit we are not and we have and do make mistakes but we KNOW that we live in the BEST COUNTRY on this planet! "

I'd be interested to know what research that conclusion is based on. Highest number of McDonalds per square mile? Oh, now I'm just being silly! See, most of us stopped all that 'my country is better than yours' in the playground.

Oh, and one last thing....Im not endorsing the University of Greenwich, it just happens to be my email address. Personally, I feel it's a shining example of the dire state of British education. But that's another topic for another day...

Wendy,

If we were to take Osama at face value, that he was motivated by:

1. The American presence in the Islamic holy land (presumably, the land of Mecca and Medina, i.e., Saudi Arabia);
2. The deaths caused by the UN sanctions on Iraq; and
3. Support for Israel

It would then seem that the invasion of Iraq was, in fact, the right thing to do since:

A. It removed the need for maintaining an American military presence in Saudi Arabia (and note that, once major combat operations ended, the US promptly announced it was withdrawing its presence from SA);
B. It removed the need for sanctions on Iraq.

As for the Arab-Israeli conflict, one might as well try to stop the tide from coming in, but at a minimum, the removal of the de facto $25K bounty on Israelis (Saddam's little "gift" to families of suicide bombers) has probably helped shrink the available pool of suicide bombing candidates.

By Osama's own terms, the elimination of the Hussein regime served US purposes.

The most valid argument of Osama's you presented, Wendy, was Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It's hardley relevant to present day foreign policy.

His reasons for wanting the West wiped away aren't valid and are short-sighted(I don't intend to analyze them for you, but maybe some one will). They are hate speach and propaganda. America responsible for 600,000 dead Iraqis??? Please give me a clue. We are most to blame for not acting sooner, for not properly enforcing UN sanctions and the terms of surrender. Our neglect is not attack and is more your neglect than ours. The Ba'athists, and the UN (because of corruption) are responsible for every one of those deaths. We should not be obligated to solve everyone's problems. We should not be forced to, as we have been. We should not have to bear so much of the burden ourselves.

Wendy, you are focusing on a small sample of points of view. Some that you quote are out of context and you take many literally that aren't. You suggest it is inappropriate to express rage at some one who takes joy in massacre and demonstrates a desire to see other cultures dead. These extreme statements express frustration at the refusal of people so see the trends that exist and that anti-war ideas and statements promote.

Your statements were blatantly anti-american. You imply that we are not aware when we simply have found these "arguments" invalid. Besides, if these were real concerns of Bin Laden, he had the means to have them addressed much more effectively.

US is the best. That may just be personal preferance and pride. Before 2001, I heard it more in other countries especially Brit, Russia, France, Germany. I doubt any country has improved and saved more lives than the US.

It's difficult to find reason for such attacks. It almost seems like Osama might actually care for the people in Arabia and has instigated the US to bring some western influence there.

The world has taken pause, economies have slowed. Capacity is not being utilized. These are the times it is best to make the vast changes that we put off for so long.

Wendy,

See, most of us stopped all that 'my country is better than yours' in the playground.

Then why do we all still partake in the Olympics? It is called competition.

We think the USA is best, you think the UK is best. In our minds we are correct and in yours you are. SO WHAT! Has national pride gone out of style?

Does it really matter why they are attacking us? The net result is the same, they want all of us dead or converted. Why would knowing why they are angry change their goal? It will not because we are not going to give up our way of life. Are we? It seems to me while some are trying to figure out WHY, we could be losing ground.
Bush and Blair are not willing to take that chance nor do they have the luxury!

Just a few quibbles:

I'd be delighted if you could point out where exactly I stated that I thought the UK was the best. Having never been to Wales or N Ireland, I can't really comment on the UK as a whole.

"You suggest it is inappropriate to express rage at some one who takes joy in massacre and demonstrates a desire to see other cultures dead"
Where did I suggest this?

"Your statements were blatantly anti-american"
Which statements exactly?

"US is the best" - now THATs what I call narrow-minded!

"US is best" is just a reference to your "most of us stopped that 'my country is better than yours' argument. I wasn't actually saying it, sorry for the mistake. I don't believe you have stopped, I noticed European countries did it more than the US before 9/11. If you want to get picky, the condesending phrasing of your observation is essentailly you saying "my country is better than yours." I got this in Germany, France, Italy, and Britian. I think that is even worse than "My country is the Best", which I heard everywhere I went and from every nationality I met, except Morraco. That's not puting anyone down, that's just pride and nationalism.

"Has this not been released in the US? In Britain we read all this long ago!"...there it is again (before, original anti-americanism). Perhaps that wasn't your intention. Maybe you didn't need to be so
defensive. As I said before, we're aware of this thinking, we have put in perspective for ourselves. You would say that it is evidence that there is more than hatred behind the attacks, I see it as evidence of the opposite.

I don't see a lot of US oppresion of Muslims. Most complainsts seem to be that we didn't support who they wanted us to and did support some they didn't. That's hardly oppression. It's also anicdotal, not a pattern. As far as I know, Islam is growing faster than Europe and America.

"The victims were innocent but I don't believe that your government is." How are we more responsible than any other, especially the Arab nations? Are we bombing their ship yards? Auto plants? Water systems? Burning Crops?

Hope you got what you wanted.

As you and Ordi pointed out, all this is just quibbling. Nothing will change their intentions. Time to deal.

Wendy,

Aaron is exactly right. Your statements were condescending. Is it the European way to be condescending? Your speculation that the US press does not report the ranting of Osama or other important news was incorrect.

It seemed as if you were saying: Come on you idiots this is common knowledge over here, you stupid American’s just don’t get it! This is why I answered you by explaining that Osama was a threat to “the entire western World” not just the USA. You gave the impress you did not comprehend this. Your first post ignored it and you blamed the US Government. I’m thankful that you understand.

I don’t think my statement that the USA is best is narrow-minded at all. I have been to 40 US states, Canada, Mexico and six foreign countries so I have a basis to form my opinion. What I cannot figure out is why you feel my opinion is narrow-minded? From my life experiences, I would say the UK is better than Greece. Is that narrow-minded? I do have the knowledge and experience to form an opinion; I lived in Greece for 2 years and visited the UK several times. Are you saying nobody should voice an opinion that one country is better than another. If so why, if not what are you saying? If you could choose any country in the world to live in which one would you choose and why? Why is it OK for Europeans to cheer and boast about their country’s football (soccer) teams but Americans can’t boast about America? Both are forms of pride and nationalism.

Jeeeesus. Talk about becoming that which you hate. The blind bile and hatred that dominate these posts reeks of the same soul rot, and stone age thought that afflicts the Islamofascists.

Call me a weenie. But talk about lashing out blindly and outrageously and without thought of innocents and without reasoned strategy then, how did that other weenie put it "brother you can count me out". Mourn the dead, but don't lose reason--it's the cornerstone of the civilisation that you guys seem to so cherish. Revenge, blood thirst--these are tribal ideas, not civilised ones.

Stop all this "nuke Mecca". When we do this, then we have become terrorists. Plain and simple.