VodkapunditVodkapunditVodkapundit
Shut the Hell Up Already
Posted by Stephen Green  ·   1 July 2002

The BBC is happy to harp on US accidents in the Afghan campaign:

Four Canadian soldiers were killed in April when a US fighter bombed them by mistake during a training exercise.

In January, US bombs killed civilians in the village of Hazar Qadam, targeted as a Taleban compound.

In December, planes bombed a convoy from the eastern town of Khost, killing people Mr Karzai said were tribal elders travelling for his inauguration.

Last October, a targeting error led to a bomb hitting a residential area of Kabul, instead of a helicopter at the airport.

During the 1898-1902 Boer War, the English Army invented the modern concentration camp. Nearly 30,000 died in them, mostly old men, women, and children.

During the Great War, the Royal Navy maintained a blockade of German ports, resulting in 1-2 million Germans starving to death.

In 1945, with the war nearly won, British bombers helped drop 9,000 tons of incendiary bombs on the town of Dresden, killing 135,000 people, and making homeless thousands more.

I mention these things not because I'm trying to draw some kind of sick moral equivalence between "British war crimes" and "American war crimes." In the case of the Boer War and both world wars, Britain did what she needed to do to survive and protect her interests -- in fights she did not start.

But war, as the man said, is major suckiness.

Today's tragedy was just that, a tragedy. We're in a war we didn't start, fighting as cleanly as we know how. So, please, BBC, don't foist your (undeserved) guilty consciences off on us.

Comments

Stephen, you disappoint me. If you can't see that today's event was a HUGE mistake that must force reflection and change by the US military, then there's something missing in your soul. Imagine the family's wiped out by that bomb. The little girls in wedding dresses blown to pieces. Why? That's not as easy a question to answer than in October. The Isreali's aren't dropping bombs on unconfirmed enemies in the dark just so that there is no risk to their troops. Shouldn't we at least strive to be as good as Isreal in our war on terror?

Posted by: pj at July 1, 2002 08:45 PM

PJ, that might be nice if we were trying to pacify, say, New Jersey -- which is still many, many times larger than the West Bank.

The last time I checked, Afghanistan was a bit further away, and just a tad larger -- and just one of our many commitments. Israel has a greater comparative force to use against a smaller foe who lies literally within walking distance.

Look at the logistics, please PJ, before spouting off nonsense. You'll seem much less foolish and perhaps slightly less stupidly smug.

Posted by: Stephen Green at July 1, 2002 09:36 PM

As for the UK not starting the Boer War, in the most limited sense this is true. However, every legitimate historian I know of says it was provoked by agents of the UK, like Cecil Rhodes, who either acted under inadequate supervision from London, or with a wink and a nod from London.

As for UK concentration camps during the war, they were truly death camps. The evidence that I am familiar with (mainly Packenham), points not to muderous intent, but criminal negligence, in their facilities making them breeding grounds for epidemics.

Whereas the previous policy was to oust the Boer's families, burn their farms, seize their livestock, and put them in camps where they would be provided for (however inadequately), the policy subsequent to the revalations about camp conditions was to leave the families amidst the ashes of their farms, with not even a nod towards their distress, and was, argueably, more cruel.

Posted by: etc. at July 2, 2002 12:04 AM

Okinawa: a quarter of a million dead, 150,000 of whom were non-combatants. This is typical of WWII not some anomaly. The idea that civilians get killed in war, and in large numbers, is a tragedy. It is not new(s).

Posted by: Frankie Five Angels at July 2, 2002 03:00 AM

PS: Inquiry for Stephen or other readers: Is that Packenham book on the Boer War anything exceptional? Its been collecting dust on my shelf for years. Motivate me (or not) somebody.

Posted by: Frankie Five Angels at July 2, 2002 06:54 AM

Killing civilians has, sadly, been more of a normal than an extraordinary policy. It is worth remembering that the Thirty Years' War effectively DEPOPULATED the Central German Plain, through repeated battles and the scourge of wandering bands of "soldiers," more properly seen as mercenaries and brigands. Avoiding civilian casualties is a blip from around the late 1600s through the mid-1800s, and even then, did not apply to wars involving non-Europeans.

The one theme among European wars of this period is that they were, for the most part, not wars of national survival; one should note that Spain and Russia both perceived Napoleon to be a national threat worthy of guerilla warfare and harsh reprisals.

As for Britain's record, one should note, if nothing else, the Opium Wars, wherein Britain fought two wars in order to secure its right to supply opium to the Chinese, in order to addict them and ensure a customer base for its product (and, in the process, secure Hong Kong and a few other choice pieces of real estate). Something all too many folks forget.....

Posted by: Dean at July 2, 2002 07:16 AM

And please note that the concept of saturation bombing of European cities during WWII was concieved by a Brit, Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris.

Posted by: John B. at July 2, 2002 07:51 AM

You all seem to be missing the point. Sure civilian casualties during a war are inevitable. Its one of the reasons smart people flee a war zone. For this reason, it was pretty hard to get worked up about the chinese journalists killed in Serbia because they knew they were in a city targeted for bombing. But what are the Afghans to do? Treat our search for rogue terrorists as an interminable war. We will never have them all. Should we continue to bomb without any adjustment of our tolerance for errors now that they have installed a government allied with us and we, in effect, control all of Afghanistan. In WWII analogies, it would be like continuing to bomb France as part of a search fpr Vichy partisans in September 1945. It's not a perfect analogy. We need to continue to use military force in Afghanistan, but we can't just shrug off deadly screw ups as simply --oops, we killed off a wedding party, so sorry, but go about your business, isn't the new regime great.

Posted by: pj at July 2, 2002 08:50 AM

First off, let's not be like over-anxious journalists and speak about the "hundreds of casualties" as though it were fact. The FACT is, we really don't know everything that happened because a thorough investigation has yet to be undertaken. Most of what we 'know' has been second-hand info passed along by 'eyewitnesses.' They could be lying, exaggerating, or telling the truth - we don't know yet. Let's wait and find out the circumstances before we start jumping to conclusions about 'mass casualties' (as reported by the news services.) Let's wait and find out if 1) we really did screw up, 2) acted in self-defense because they fired into the air, 3) was an errant bomb or 4) there's another explanation entirely. I've learned not to trust the accuracy of the various news agencies. Sadly, their perspective and objectivity sometimes get lost in the interest of a 'breaking story.'

Posted by: anne lee at July 2, 2002 07:22 PM



Navigation

MDS - Give Until It Hurts

Terror War Scorecard
Watching America

50 Things
American Cancer Ablation Center
Buy VodkaPundit Stuff



VodkaPundit on Amazon
Vodkapundit for PDA (AvantGo)
Vodkapundit for PDA (Not)
VodkaPundit XML or RDF

Search



Advanced Search



Last Call

The Author

"As a self-proclaimed alcoholic I can tell you, VodkaPundit kicks ass."
-Seldom Sober

Absolut Link

Blog-Iran

Top Shelf

Ann Althouse
Baldilocks
Austin Bay
Belmont Club
Tim Blair
Chequer Board
Command Post
Counterterrorism Blog
Day By Day
Daniel Drezner
From the Bleachers
Hit & Run
INDC Journal
Iraq the Model
James Joyner
James Lileks
Megan McArdle
OPFOR
Protein Wisdom
Glenn Reynolds
Bill Roggio
ScreedBlog
Roger L. Simon
Rob Smith
Steven Taylor
Venomous Kate
Matt Welch
Winds of Change
Michael Yon
Yuppies of Zion


The Usual

Across the Atlantic
Anticipatory Retaliation
Atlas Shrugs
The Black Republican
Blogcritics
Captain's Quarters
Phil Carter
The Daily Ablution
Andrew Ian Dodge
Eye on the Left
Mike Hendrix
In From the Cold
Charles Johnson
Kathy Kinsley
A Likely Story
Brian Linse
Jay Manifold
Neocon News
Frank Martin
QandO
Bill Quick
Rantburg
John Scalzi
Sine Qua Non Pundit
Team Stryker
Mac Thomason
Michael Totten
Jesse Walker
Dr. Weevil
Bill Whittle
Chief Wiggles
Sissy Willis
Cathy Young

Micro Brews

American Realpolitik
Black Five
Boots and Sabers
Capitalist Lion
Scott Chaffin
John Cole
Coming Anarchy
Bo Cowgill
Dr. Frank's Blogs of War
Donklephant
Ed Driscoll
Kim du Toit
Glenn Frazier
Joe Gandleman
The Gay Patriot
Godless Capitalist
Bill Hobbs
John Hudock
Frank J.'s IMAO
Joanne Jacobs
Brothers Judd
Junk Yard Blog
Major John
Davids Medienkritik
Mr. Misha's Rottweiler
Only Baseball Matters
Matt Moore
Jack O'Toole
Peaktalk
Eric S. Raymond
Red Sugar
Resurrection Song
Robin Roberts
Andrea See
Mathew Sheren
Spoons Experience
DC Thornton
Yankee Station

Gin & Tonic

Albion's Seedlings
American Digest
Radley Balko
Paul Berger
Robert Bidinotto
Blogometer
BusinessPundit
The Chicago Boyz
Classical Values
Conrad the Expat
Susanna Cornett
Dave Cullen
England's Sword
Dean Esmay
Horsefeathers
Jessica's Well
Alex Knapp
Legal Spin
Light of Reason
The Lipstick Republican
Moxie
OxBlog
Suman Palit
Punch the Bag
The Pursuit of Happiness
Samizdata
Sofia Sideshow
Natalie Solent
Texas Best Grok
Professor Michael Tinkler
Cal Ulmann
Brothers Volokh

Cosmopolitans

Justene Adamec
Stephen Bainbridge
La Shawn Barber
Moira Breen
Sasha Castel
Colorado Psycho
Clayton Cramer
CrossingWallStreet
Martin Devon
Kevin Drum
Henry Hanks
Diana Hsieh
Jeff Jarvis
Jessica
Sean Kirby
Liberty Belles
Rachel Lucas
Jeralyn Merritt
Philip Murphy
Oasis of Sanity
Andrew Olmsted
Walter Olson
Michael Parker
Popped Culture
Porphyrogenitus
Fritz Schrank
Donald Sensing
Elizabeth Spiers
The Swanky Conservative
Two Blowhards
Michael Ubaldi
Alexandra von Maltzan
Will Wilkinson

Rum & Coke

The Argument Clinic
Below the Beltway
The Bitch Girls
Jay Caruso
Dog's Life
Fire On The Mountain
GeckoBlue
GZ Expat
David Hogberg
John Hawkins
Horologium
Kris Lofgren
Floyd McWilliams
John Moore
PhotoDude
Robyn Pollman
Chas Rich
Silflay Hraka
Geitner Simmons
Skippy
Dave Tepper
Transterrestrial Musings
Trying to Grok
Walter in Denver
Don Watkins
Weekend Pundit
Joshua Zader

Tequila Shots

Todd A
N.Z. Bear
Begging to Differ
David MSC
Gary Farber
Highered Intelligence
Isntapundit
Jonathan and Wanda
Ken Layne
Nick Marsala
Dan Michalski
Sheila O'Malley
Dawn Olsen
Tony Pierce
Raving Atheist
Matt Traylor
Sekimori
WMET Blog
World Wide Rant

Manischewitz

Moe Freedman
Tal G. in Jerusalem
IsraPundit
Kesher Talk
Mike Silverman
Allison Kaplan Sommer
Meryl Yourish

Boozehounds

Allah Is In the House
Dave Barry's Blog
The Daily Sedative
Doug Dever
Daniel Frank
Scott Ott
Large American Penis
Short Strange Trip
Ten Fingers, Six Strings
Jim Treacher

Cyanide-Laced Kool-Aid

Laurence Simon

Sex on the Beach

Body in Mind
ErosBlog
Eroticalee
Just One Bite
Fred Lapides
New York Hotties
SLA
Unablogger

Kegger

Ben Domenech
HokiePundit
Hoosier Review
John Tabin
Nicholas West

Fosters

Duck Season
Mike Jericho
John Ray
Bernard Slattery
Whacking Day

Molson

Banana Counting Monkey
Daimnation!
Dispatches
David Janes
Western Standard

Left Wing Bar Nuts

Ted Barlow
Joshua Marshall
Dan Perkins

Cover Charge

Eric Alterman
Dave Barry
Barone Blog
Austin Bay
Jay Bryant
C-Log
Campaign Desk
Steve Chapman
Dallas News Blog
Matt Drudge
Google News
Nat Henthoff
Hugh Hewitt
Mickey Kaus
Howard Kurtz
National Review Online
The New Republic
The New York Times
Newsweek
OpinionJournal
Kathleen Parker
Daniel Pipes
Virginia Postrel
Roll Call
Larry Sabato
Linda Seebach
Slate
Sploid
Mark Steyn
StrategyPage
Andrew Sullivan
Tapped
Tech Central Station
Time
US News & World Report
David Warren
The Washington Post

Under the Table

American Times
Angry Left
Asparagirl
BitchPundit
John Braue
Shiloh Bucher
Carthaginian Peace
Lorenzo Cortes
Steven Den Beste
Fevered Rants
Scott "Funkadelic" Ganz
Juan Gato
Happy Fun Pundit
Andrea Harris
Scott Koenig
Brink Lindsey
Sue Lizano
Kieran Lyons
Mean Mr. Mustard
Meeshness
Punditwatch
Dennis Rogers
Jim Ryan
Spinsanity
Unremitting Verse
Norah Vincent
Tony Woodlief

Archives

Powered by Movable TypeDesign by Sekimori